CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, the hosts discuss the trade that shook the NBA.

Takeaways:

• Luka Doncic’s trade is unprecedented in NBA history.
• The Mavericks’ decision to trade Luka raises questions about their management.
• Anthony Davis’s value is significant, but not comparable to Luka’s potential.
• The trade reflects a shift in the Mavericks’ strategy towards a two bigs model like the Cavs.
• The Lakers’ future hinges on how well Luka and LeBron can coexist.
• Trade values in the NBA are inconsistent and often surprising.
• The importance of offensive prowess over defensive strategies in the current NBA.
• Dallas’s management may have misjudged Luka’s long-term potential.
• The trade could reshape the landscape of the NBA for years to come. The evolution of offensive strategies is crucial in today’s NBA.
• Defense alone may not guarantee success in the playoffs.
• Recent trades can significantly impact team dynamics and future strategies.
• The Cavs are setting franchise records, showcasing their offensive prowess.
• Evan Mobley’s development is key to the Cavs’ championship aspirations.
• Sam Merrill’s breakout performance could influence trade decisions.
• Team chemistry is vital when considering major trades.
• Strategic planning is essential for teams aiming for contention.
• The Cavs have a strong core that can compete for championships.

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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Ethan Sands

What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And with me today to discuss one of the biggest happenings in the NBA are two of the smartest basketball minds that I know.

Jimmy Watkins (00:27.424)

Sam Merrill, we’re talking about Sam Merrill’s career night.

Ethan Sands (00:34.313)

Not yet. We will get to him, of course. But on today’s Cavs podcast for everybody that’s listening and being like, well, why are you not already talking about the Dallas Mavericks beatdown? Well, because we’re to talk about a different Dallas Mavericks story and the biggest one coming out of this morning around midnight. So literally turning into today, the Dallas Mavericks traded Luka Donchich, 25 year old phenom and

a 20, 29 first over first pick in first round pick to the Los Angeles Lakers for Anthony Davis, some other guys, Max Christie, Jimmy, I know you don’t want me to leave him out.

Jimmy Watkins (01:15.604)

Never forget Max Christie. He’s like the Lugedontage Trade version of the NBA Cup. We have to respect Max Christie.

Chris (01:16.141)

You

Ethan Sands (01:24.639)

Of course, the Dallas Mavericks gave up more than just one star, but we’ll get into that.

Jimmy Watkins (01:44.827)

One pick, one pick for a 25 year old superstar. One.

Chris (01:48.254)

Easy. Easy. It’s not apples to apples. Like all these people are talking about the Rudy Gobert thing and they’re talking about the Mikkel Bridges thing. None of those packages included Anthony Davis going back the other way. So you can stop those comparisons right now. You got a top fifth. Like I’m not justifying the trade from Dallas’s perspective in any sort of way. I’m talking about this conversation about Mikkel Bridges or Rudy Gobert going for more. No, they did not.

Jimmy Watkins (01:55.166)

I’m with you on that.

Jimmy Watkins (02:02.23)

For sure. I’m not gonna make those.

Chris (02:18.082)

They went from more draft capital and draft capital alone, but neither of those teams got Anthony Davis back in return, who is going to be an all NBA player, who is an all NBA player and is going to be a Hall of Famer. So this isn’t justifying Dallas’s decision to move on from Luka Doncic. It’s just saying that comparison is dumb.

Jimmy Watkins (02:41.558)

Nathan’s trying to run the pod right now and Chris and I have just been sitting on these takes for hours and they’re just pouring out of us.

Chris (02:46.734)

you

Ethan Sands (02:51.093)

Hey, man, that’s what podcasts are for. I’m supposed to make sure y’all don’t talk too much over each other. And that’s about it. So have that. A.D. to Dallas, Luka Donsich to LA, probably, if not the one of the biggest trades mid-season in NBA history, at least, especially in our generation, Jimmy. And I want to get into just the significance of it. And obviously, Chris, I’m sorry.

partially talked about the comparisons between trades. People are referring to LeBron James to the Heat. People are referring to other big time trades, KD to the Warriors. Where does this sit in your guys’ rankings for trades that not only you’ve been a part of, Chris, since you’ve been covering the Cavs for 10 years and the NBA for even longer, but just overall in your experience of watching sports?

Chris (03:49.698)

Well, another one just went down in the NBA with De’Aaron Fox being traded to the San Antonio Spurs in a deal that also includes Zach Levine going to the Sacramento Kings. So that trade specifically that I just brought up right there, according to Joms, that one is not.

Jimmy Watkins (04:02.154)

Wow!

Chris (04:07.17)

higher on the list than the Luka Doncic one? The Luka one is the one that has stunned me more than any other in the NBA. And I know people that listen to this podcast probably get sick of me saying it and Ethan probably gets sick of me saying it. It’s why you never say never in the NBA. Who would have predicted Luka Doncic, not even yet in his prime, a five time first team all NBA player?

A five-time All-Star, a guy who just led the Mavericks to the NBA Finals. A guy who, when they put out these GM surveys at the beginning of the year for NBA.com and all these GMs are asked, who would you most want to build your franchise around? Who’s the most untradable commodity in the entire NBA? A guy who’s always near the top of those rankings. A megastar in every single sense. Just got traded.

I don’t know how you wrap your head around that. And it’s funny because I’ve spent the last 18 to 20 hours talking to a bunch of smart people, as many smart people as possible, coaches, executives, scouts, players in the NBA. And, you know, there are some of them that are coming up with these explanations because

You ask them for an explanation and they give you their best take on the situation, but you hear all these explanations and then you come to the same conclusion. It’s baffling. It’s still baffling. It’s one of the hardest trades that I’ve ever had to try and digest in my life. And I don’t think I’m ever going to understand it.

Jimmy Watkins (05:45.726)

If it feels, first of all, sorry, I had my mic in my lap before and I wasn’t holding it. That’s very dumb of me. I feel like Nico Harrison right now. This will not be my last pop-off at Nico Harrison, the Mavericks GM on this podcast. Or I’ll bury myself, Chris, is what he said. I’ll bury myself. How might you do that, Nico? How might you do that? How might you do that? Could it be by trading a 25-year-old superstar in his prime?

Chris (05:58.628)

Well, ten years from now, Jimmy, you’re going to be buried anyway.

Chris (06:06.284)

Yes, this is what he said. I’ll bury myself.

Jimmy Watkins (06:15.444)

for a much older, more injury prone superstar? Could that be how you do it? If it feels like, I’m sure people have been saying some version of this to themselves, huh, I wonder if a player like Luka Dončić has ever been traded in this manner. Obviously we live in the time of trade requests, guys get moved all the time. It’s the NBA, this league Mark Stein likes to say, this league, can’t believe this league. I really can’t, I really can’t believe this league. It’s fun, it’s fun to talk about, trades are fun to talk about.

Chris (06:33.154)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (06:45.16)

That’s because if it feels like Luka Doncic, if it feels like this has never happened before, it’s because it has. Luka Doncic, for his career, 28, eight and eight. Type that little stat line into stat head, basketball reference arm, you get three players ever, 25 or younger, who have had 28 and eight seasons. It’s Michael Jordan, Oscar Robertson, and of course, Luka Doncic. Oscar Robertson was traded.

but he was during his career when he was amidst a divorce in the making, let’s say. By the way, that list I just read you, that’s three players ever who have had a season, 28 and eight, and Oscar had a few, aged 25 or younger. That is Luca’s career average. Those are his career averages. the best season, no. Notice, you know who I didn’t say there? LeBron James. You could make the case. We’re not here to do it.

We’re not here to have this conversation. You can make the case Luka Dantic is the best player at age 25 ever. You could make that case. And the Mavericks were just like, you know what? I don’t see it with him. I don’t think that we want, we’re going to bet against his long-term future. And it’s like, we could put our, we could put our galaxy caps on and explain. We, I’m sure we’ll get into Nico’s press conference today, which was, I feel like I watched a car crash with a bunch of people in that room today.

Chris (07:53.486)

yeah.

Chris (08:02.978)

Right?

Jimmy Watkins (08:12.894)

I can’t believe the things that were coming out of his mouth as he was saying them. There were multiple times Chris was standing right next to me where I was just laughing openly, trying to be quiet, but I could not believe what this man was saying into a microphone. Like, do you know we’re listening? Do you know our recorders are turned on? That’s line from a column that I’m going to write for the morning. I can’t believe what you’re saying to me right now, Nico. Even if you want to say, you know, okay, Luca, we don’t like his work habits and we think that he might.

Chris (08:17.56)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (08:40.054)

you know, his aging curve might hit a little sooner than some. The next contract that he signs is going to take him through what age 31? Like, you’re still going to get the meat of his prime and whatever bad work habits he has, whether he, I mean, let’s, let’s say Luca every single day is going to the local Dallas watering hole, ordering 10 tequila shots before he plays the game. That would be bad. I wouldn’t like that. But he’s in smoking a pack of cigarettes, whatever you want. There’s the famous clip.

Chris (09:04.654)

and smoking a pack of things a day,

Jimmy Watkins (09:09.8)

or the clip that got rerun today. I Bill Simmons tweeted out of Michael, I think it’s Michael Finley, the Mavs assistant GM during last playoff run where Lucas is celebrating with a beer and Michael Finley takes it out of his hands. think there’s that, there’s that’s all happening. He’s still, whatever he’s doing, he still led you to the finals last year and he’s still gonna be, he still played 60 games, at least 60 games every single year of his career. Pretty durable, pretty durable. And some of those years are COVID shortened seasons.

where you only played 72, so actually incredibly durable. And you’re just traded for a dude whose nickname is Street Clothes. And he’s 31. And I love Anthony Davis. I count myself as like a top 1 % Anthony Davis believer. I think he’s the best defensive player on the earth. We can have that debate. I believe it. He rolls out of bed with 20 points and 12 rebounds. Yeah, look at me funny, Ethan. I think he’s the best defensive player in the NBA. 20 points, 12 rebounds. You can put that on his stat sheet when you wake up in the morning.

Luca is one of one. He’s the thing, like, he’s the thing you, the thing you need most to win a championship. He’s the hardest, exactly. He’s the hardest thing to find in the NBA. You got so lucky drafting him. The fact that Luca didn’t go number one in his draft remains insane. And the only thing crazier than that I can think of right now is then trading him with a year and a half left on his contract. And it should be noted, no implication from Luca that he was going to not sign an extension.

Chris (10:14.798)

Apparently Victor Wenbunyama is not alive. Who knew?

Jimmy Watkins (10:38.368)

with the Mavericks. Another incredible sentence that came out of Nico Harrison’s mouth today. I will rest.

Ethan Sands (10:46.121)

Okay, so just a couple of things. Because one of them I think me and Chris can agree on, then I’ll give some reporting. Jimmy, Victor Wimbanyama exists. He lives on this earth. So that’s where I would go for the best defensive player on the earth. I understand there’s like a… Okay. Thank you.

Jimmy Watkins (11:03.926)

That’s fair. That’s fair.

Chris (11:06.974)

thank- yeah, you admit that? You admit the guy that ranks higher in every statistical category than Anthony Davis? Okay.

Jimmy Watkins (11:10.298)

Okay, the take, okay, hold on. That’s a take I’ve long had and it has existed. It’s mostly a take based in pre-Victor Wemba Nyama reality. Victor Wemba Nyama is an alien and definitely better than Anthony Davis on the defense event for sure. Anthony Davis, fine, second best player, second best defense player. We can debate that now. But again, what did I say? I said I didn’t want to make it about this debate. We’re talking about the trade.

Ethan Sands (11:28.343)

Okay. All right.

Ethan Sands (11:34.983)

Anyway, anyway, well, Anthony Davis is involved in the trade. technically he is in the conversation. You did sound a little bit like Nico Harrison there contradicting yourself, but, but the biggest thing I, when talking to people around the league, obviously there was worry about Luka Donjic’s conditioning. As we all know, as we all read, he, has, as it has been reported, like he’s gotten up to

Jimmy Watkins (11:44.032)

Fair enough, fair enough.

Ethan Sands (12:03.223)

of 270 pounds, right? And that’s something that apparently, according to my sources, that the Dallas Mavericks were feeling like it could end up being a Joel Embiid type situation. And if that is the case, then it is completely like, it’s not warranted. It’s not like this doesn’t make everything okay. But to think about a star player that has come through the league, who’s had that kind of impact.

on a team like joe lmb but he’s not available and he wasn’t able to lead his team because of all these injuries and things like that it makes it a little bit better like more easy to swallow but i don’t like i don’t

Chris (12:44.5)

Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. There is not a thing that you could say right now that would make it easier to understand this. This is an F. An F grade for the Dallas Mavericks. I don’t care. Like this is one of the three best, most talented players in the entire NBA who, like, as an organization, you

Jimmy Watkins (12:45.374)

No no no no no no no no no no!

Chris (13:14.6)

You live to have one of these guys. One of these guys. Like you hope to be lucky enough to be in position to get one of these guys. A generational talent. There are some organizations guys that never get a player like Luka. And they never will get a player like Luka. Because there aren’t enough of them around. So.

You can sit there and you can talk about conditioning and you can talk about his smoking and you can talk about his whatever you want to say in terms of these habits. Nope. Like this isn’t the guy to bet against. Like all of these things or many of these things were true last year. Like he looked a little bit pudgy. He looked a little bit overweight. He led him to the finals.

He is the second highest points per game in playoff history in the NBA. Like, it’s not a problem. It hasn’t prevented him from anything. The Joel Embiid thing is ridiculous. Joel Embiid has been hurt since he got out of the crib. Like, seriously, this is a guy who was in the NBA draft and at the time would have been the first overall pick, but he had foot issues. He couldn’t stay healthy.

In college, couldn’t stay healthy. In Cameroon, he couldn’t stay healthy anywhere. Like he’s never been healthy. Like, Luca’s not the same situation here. Luca’s never shown this kind of lack of availability. Luca’s never shown a lack of reliability. Luca has never shown that like all these things that, you know, Dallas is clearly preparing themselves for, or they were worried about.

Like none of these things have been a detriment to him elevating the Mavericks, elevating himself to one of the best players in the NBA, and taking their franchise to the NBA Finals. Yeah, part of that was Kyrie is there.

Chris (15:18.85)

Part of that is the trade that they made for PJ Washington and Daniel Gafford But it’s because this dude elevates everybody around him and he has since he came into the NBA he won in Europe He was a little bit pudgy there. He didn’t have the athleticism Idiots passed on him in the draft for Marvin Bagley and Deandre Ayton and like all of those different things people have like made these things up

Jimmy Watkins (15:35.436)

As a child. As a child.

Chris (15:47.134)

Why Luca wasn’t going to be this or he wasn’t going to be that and look at him like there is nothing on his resume That would tell you bet against this guy

Jimmy Watkins (15:59.968)

He’s, so here’s the thing. I feel like another clip that’s been making the rounds today, the.

Chris (16:04.747)

He’s gonna go to LA, he’s gonna get a tan, he’s gonna get a chef, and he’s gonna go scorched earth. That’s what’s going to happen here.

Jimmy Watkins (16:13.43)

I was thinking about the Brian Windhorst clip from the finals last year. First of all, one of the most elite 60 seconds of sports television I’ve ever seen, Brian Windhorst’s takedown of Luca on SportsCenter last year. He was right about everything. Luca does need to take conditioning more seriously. He does need to invest more energy or invest more focus on defense. That is a very large part of the reason why Dallas lost in the finals to the Celtics last year. But he got you to the fricking finals.

Okay, let’s not like, Nico Harrison was talking about defense wins championships today and he was talking about culture fits and all these different things. feel like Nico’s just been watching that Brian Windhorst clip on a loop in his office for the last seven months. And he’s just completely lost sight of the plot here.

Chris (16:43.906)

Yeah, he got you.

Jimmy Watkins (17:06.048)

I am aghast. I cannot fathom why you would make this decision. The dude, he got you to the finals, he got you to the Western Conference finals before Kyrie got there when he had his sidekick was sixth man Jalen Brunson before we even knew. By the way, the Mavs let Jalen Brunson, now a top 10-ish NBA player, on what is now maybe the best contract in the NBA, which is why they had to go get Kyrie Irving. Like, hmm, who?

Who should I trust more, Luka Doncic, who is the reason the Dallas Mavericks are a relevant basketball franchise or Dallas Mavericks management, which I know has changed since Luka has been there, but has, let’s say a less sterling track record, which is, hey, hard to have a less, a better track record than literally one of the best players that we’ve ever seen. Who you traded.

Ethan Sands (18:00.439)

I’m not saying that I agree with the trade. What I was saying was I was giving the sourcing that I had been given about what the Dallas Maverick management and upper and front office was thinking coming into the trade. I’m not saying that this is a

Jimmy Watkins (18:15.958)

Who do you think is going to age better over the next five years? Luca Doncic or Anthony Davis? Anthony Davis will be 36. Anthony Davis will be 36. He might be retired. He might be retired by the end of this conversation. What are we doing here? I understand why the Dallas Mavericks have to say the things. I actually think they should lie more. They should tell people that it was an animus relationship. At least that way they could help public perception a little bit. We all, like, I just…

Ethan Sands (18:21.788)

Okay.

Jimmy Watkins (18:45.802)

The idea is, don’t, even if Luca, no, I’m not even gonna go down the road. This just doesn’t make any sense.

Chris (18:51.776)

No, I had an executive text me and they said, you know, Nico Harrison must be the biggest Anthony Davis fan in the world. Like this was something that Dallas wanted, right? It’s not the other way. was like, yeah, the Lakers wanted it too. Duh. They had an opportunity to take advantage of this situation. And now all of sudden they’ve gone from.

Kobe to LeBron to now Luka and you even go way before then. You know, they have they have their future set for the next 10 to 12 years with Luka. So of course they’re going to take advantage of it and they’re going to determine if it’s best for them or whatever. But like this wasn’t the Lakers reaching out to the Mavericks saying, Hey, like

We really think Luca would be a good fit next to LeBron and we’ve had our eyes on Luca for a long, long time. This was the Maverick saying, hey, we really, really, really like Anthony Davis. Like, love him. To the point where Nico Harrison said, you know, in his press conference earlier today that they didn’t talk to any other teams in the NBA. I know one that they didn’t talk to for sure was the Cavs. So like,

This was about them and how much they love AD and how much they see this as something that’s going to push them over the top in the short term because of what AD is going to do defensively and Niko Harrison even brought it up guys like he envisions they have a vision for what they want the Mavericks to be and for some reason it doesn’t include Luka Dacic and it doesn’t include Anthony Davis but their vision is

We’re going to build something like the Cavs. We’re going to put two bigs together, whether it’s Gafford in AD or it’s Derek Lively in AD, and we’re going to build something like the Cavs. And this isn’t the last team that is going to do this, right? And it’s not the first team this year that has talked about kind of using the Cavs bigs, the two bigs, as a model for potential success.

Chris (21:05.802)

Eric Spolstra in the Miami Heat talked about it just the other night when they decided to move Kaleo Ware into the starting lineup with Bam Atabayo. They referenced the success that Evan Mobley and Jared Allen were having together. And Nico Harrison singled out the calves as part of what he wants the vision of the Dallas Mavericks moving forward to look like.

And I think that speaks volumes about how far the Cavs have come in such a short time and how around this time last year, all of the conversations centered on Jared Allen and Evan Mobley doesn’t work together. You can’t have these two guys together and create a dynamic offense to compliment his stingy defense. Well, guess what? You can, and there’s enough evidence of it. And other teams, whether they’re smart or dumb for doing it, are trying to emulate that.

Jimmy Watkins (22:00.246)

Okay, so I wanna put a pin on that, I wanna talk about, real quick, I’m sorry, Ethan, real quick, I’m sorry. I wanna put a pin on that, because I do wanna talk about that idea, that’s when we’re gonna put our Galaxy caps on. I just wanna say, the Cavs are being precious about making trades at the deadline, with a core that, yes, is 49, but has only won one playoff series. The Mavericks just nuked their franchise after going to the finals, that makes no sense whatsoever. I would trade, now, to the point of how crazy it is, I would trade, I would do this exact trade.

if I’m the Lakers, if you included LeBron, LeBron and Anthony Davis for Luka Dantos, sign me up. They didn’t even have to do that. Didn’t even have to throw in Austin Reeves. Great. guess, I guess Nico Harrison also loves Max Christie, who can’t hit a corner three to save his life. Even if Luka, and he didn’t, let’s be clear, he did not request a trade, but even if he requested a trade, he is so good that you like, you just have to try and say, you have to dig your heels in and say like, I don’t care, I don’t care, yeah.

Chris (22:56.408)

Yeah, nope.

Jimmy Watkins (22:59.008)

You’re so like, you’re the kind of player that you just don’t, you have to try to convince him otherwise. There is no reality where you can settle on the solution of trade Luka Donchich. Can’t have it.

Ethan Sands (23:12.427)

Okay, so because now we have another trade to go through I want to get to the end of the first trade Chris and Jimmy How does this work for either team because there’s been people that are like it’s a win-win There are people that like it’s a win-lose

Jimmy Watkins (23:27.734)

Who is saying this? Who is saying win-win? Who is saying this? Nico Harrison, there’s one. Nico Harrison, we got one. Jason Kidd, looking as sad as he’s ever looked. Jason Kidd with the backwards hat on. Jason Kidd with the backwards hat on during the disaster press conference. Maybe not a hat day, Jason, just saying. I don’t know.

Ethan Sands (23:34.135)

You

Chris (23:34.209)

people.

Jason Kidd. Jason Kidd. Florida. Florida. Florida.

Ethan Sands (23:38.359)

I think.

Chris (23:49.698)

Not a new phenomenon, he’s got to stay true to himself. He’s a backwards hack, kinda guy.

Jimmy Watkins (23:51.86)

I know he does it all the time. I know he does it every day. Just maybe not today.

Ethan Sands (23:59.319)

I forget who it was. Somebody was on television after it. I think it was because it was after the Blazers game and they were talking about it rather than talking about the Blazers game. And somebody said it was a win-win. So that’s that’s that. But Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving, Klay Thompson, LeBron James and Luke Goodnutt. Yes, it would have been. But what I’m what I’m saying is.

Jimmy Watkins (24:17.802)

Hell of a team, hell of a team eight years ago.

Jimmy Watkins (24:23.958)

By the way, still a good team.

Ethan Sands (24:27.201)

Correct. Still a good team. What I’m saying is, the Lakers need a big now. They need a center. You’re not going to start Jackson Hayes in a playoff series and feel like you’re going to win that playoff series. Like point blank, right? Now, and then you talk about Dallas, like the age factor comes into play hugely. That’s another thing that Nico Harrison discussed talking about how this is setting them up to win now and in the future.

Well, the future better be in the next two years because where are these other players going to be? so how do you guys feel like both situations could be beneficial or if you don’t think Dallas could be beneficial at all, tell me how that the Lakers make this work without a center current.

Chris (25:17.73)

Well, I mean, they’re not done. The trade deadline is still a few days away and they didn’t give up all their assets for Luka Doncic, which is baffling to think about. That they didn’t give up more. The first iteration of the trade hit social media last night and I was waiting for the next level of the trade to come out because you would think that it would have cost a little bit more, even with Anthony Davis changing sides.

You still would have thought it’s Luka Doncic. It’s Luka freaking Doncic. A little bit more had to be included What other picks are going? What other young controllable players are going? What’s the third team gonna add to the equation? You know what I mean? So you kept wondering if there was going to be more But there wasn’t So, you know if you’re looking at the construction of the Lakers and you’re trying to win this year First of all, it is difficult. It’s going to be difficult

Luka’s brilliant and LeBron’s brilliant and two high IQ players, they’re gonna find a way. But, like…

It’s a drastic change for a team to bring in that kind of player that commands that kind of attention, high volume, touches in the offense, all those different things. Like, Luca is used to having everything his way and a team built around his skill set, right? Bringing that kind of player with that kind of skill set in midway through the season, it is not going to be easy and it’s not going to be seamless.

I’m never going to bet against LeBron because I’ve learned my lesson. I don’t bet against Luka because that generational talent makes you look foolish if you do. But it’s just not going to be seamless. And I think we all understand that. And I think it’s okay to say that because this wasn’t about let’s be our best in February. Let’s be our best in March. It’s can we figure it out in time?

Chris (27:13.822)

For when the playoffs roll around did LeBron always had this saying when he was here in Cleveland I know he’s 40 and it’s not the same situation, but LeBron was just like get me in the playoffs I don’t give a crap what seed I am if I’m the eighth seed I’m gonna go take down the number one Hawks, you know, if I’m the seventh seed I’m gonna go into Toronto and ruin their dreams It didn’t matter to LeBron what seed he was and I think if you have Luke and LeBron together in a seven game series Who wants to see that?

And it’s not to say that they would win their first round series against these upper echelon teams that have proven themselves at a different kind of level to this point, but that is a scary proposition. And it just goes to the point of like, this isn’t about figuring it out now.

You just have to have it figured out by the time the playoffs roll around if you get to the playoffs or if you get to the play-in tournament and when it comes to their roster construction, you know, they do have other assets that they can trade other assets that they kept out of the Luka Doncic deal somehow that if there’s No, he was just fixated on AD it was all about AD like I’ve never seen a player that commanded that much love

Jimmy Watkins (28:12.758)

Are you sure Nico Harrison knows they have other assets? I’m not sure.

Chris (28:25.526)

from another general manager the way that AD did from Nigo Harrison. Like he just kept raving about AD every time he spoke. And obviously that’s the selling point for Mavericks fans in this trade because he’s not going to speak volumes about Max Christie or whatever the future pick turns into. You know, you got to sell it a certain kind of way and you got to focus on AD because he’s the centerpiece of that going back to Dallas. But you know, when you’re the Lakers,

and you were able to keep those assets out of the deal, centers are easy to find. Think about what Dallas had to give up or all Dallas had to give up in order to get PJ Washington and Daniel Gafford. Like those kinds of guys helped transform the style of the Dallas Mavericks. Those kinds of guys are out there. Those kinds of guys don’t command as much in the trade market. And the other thing is,

Ethan Sands (29:15.585)

Okay.

Chris (29:23.04)

If anybody gets bought out, like, who’s looking at this saying, yeah, I don’t want to go to Los Angeles. I don’t want to go to Los Angeles and play with LeBron and Luca. Like, as much as LA was already appealing,

they’re going to be big time players if they have the financial wiggle room. They’re going to be big time players in the buyout market and they’re going to be attractive to somebody that is bought out. So I just think the kind of player that they’re looking for is not all that costly in a trade. I also think that it’s more available than.

You a player like Luka, obviously. Or even a player like Cam Johnson, or even a player like DeAndre Hunter. Like, you could get Clint Capella, theoretically. And I’m just throwing out an example, because he is available right now. You theoretically, if you have the kind of assets that appeal enough to the Hawks, you theoretically could get Clint Capella to do those kinds of AD-like things. Not to the level of AD, because he’s not as good of a player.

but he brings that kind of skill set. Just run the floor, catch lobs, set some screens, protect the pain a little bit, rim run, get out in transition. There are guys like that that can help the Lakers if they’re willing to make a trade over the next couple of days.

Ethan Sands (30:52.183)

All right, so let me reword the question for you, so we can continue to push forward. Because Chris kind of got into it, right? There are other guys that are on the Lakers radar. Jonas Valentunis, Nikola Vusovic. Who would you think or who would you want to pair as the center that we can see is available with the Lakers from around the league? And the other portion, because I know you want to get into this, Jimmy.

Jimmy Watkins (30:52.31)

I’m done.

Jimmy Watkins (30:56.598)

Okay.

Ethan Sands (31:21.481)

And Chris has alluded to this as well. The Lakers didn’t have to give up a whole lot for Luka Dondridge, right? What do you think that means for the rest of the NBA, especially after we’ve seen guys go for four, six picks already, and that kind of gets into our next conversation when we get into the next trade. But just about the Lakers Mavericks trade, what are your thoughts on those two topics?

Chris (31:39.246)

Thanks

Jimmy Watkins (31:51.04)

think every trade is its own organism to the point about how it affects other trade. think every trade is its own organism, Like clearly, because if we were using other trades as benchmarks, then Nico Harrison would own Rob Polinka’s house right now. Instead, he owns one of Rob Polinka’s first round picks. I still can’t believe that. I cannot believe that. I like the Clint Capella idea that Chris put. I just think they need like a defensive anchor guy.

who kick, cause the defense has been an issue even with AD they’re playing better during this recent stretch. but some guy who can protect the rim ideally switchable, that sort of thing. The thing I want to do for the Lakers, LeBron, Luca fit, I actually wondered, this is a sinister thought. I wondered if the Lakers would shop LeBron a little bit. It’s really complicated cause he’s 40. I have no idea what you can get for LeBron now, but they have overlapping skillset. Everything about the next 18 months should be about getting Luca to sign.

an extension and I don’t know if LeBron’s retirement tour actually helps that cause a ton. Again, you probably can’t get a return for LeBron that equates to the value of LeBron. get that. But I think that’ll be an interesting experiment. From the Maverick side, Chris alluded to it with the two bigs thing and Nico shouted out the calves in a Dallas Boarding News story yesterday on the trade. I think it was Brad Townsend who did it. Really good job, Brad.

it’s that’s, this is where we put our galaxy caps on. Okay. Because Nico’s saying he’s looking, I think what he’s doing is looking at recent champions, right? Lakers in 2022, bigs, AD and Javel slash Dwight. the Warriors, you don’t really think of them this way, but Kavanh Looney and Draymond Green, two smaller bigs like solidify their defensive rebounding two bigs. Denver Nuggets, Nikola, Nikola Jokic, one of a kind guy. It’s not a one-to-one Aaron Gordon, kind of a big wing, but like still two big players at the top of your.

top of your front court there. And then the Boston South X, I guess he just glossed over them because they play five out, but that’s fine. And he’s looking at the recent history. He’s looking at the recent history of champions and he’s saying two bigs. That’s how you build a championship defense. I’m with you on that part. think the Cavs have done it really well. It’s just that the Lakers also had LeBron James. The Warriors also had Steph Curry, the Bucks. forgot to mention the Bucks. Giannis and Brook Lopez, two bigs. Yeah, they had Giannis. Giannis was

Chris (33:55.607)

you

Jimmy Watkins (34:17.354)

doing things with the ball in his hands that Anthony Davis doesn’t do. You traded your Steph Curry and LeBron James to build your two bigs front court. That doesn’t work. It doesn’t compute. I hear what you’re saying. Maybe there can be a real fascinating conversation to be had. Like is the NBA pivot, are two bigs the next wave? Is everyone going to try to emulate the Cavs? That’s a conversation worth having. I’ll tell you what none of them are gonna do. Trade a generational talent to do it and shorten their contention window.

By, I mean, exponents. You went from my best player is 25 to my best player is 31. What?

Chris (34:59.03)

Yeah. I mean, I think the other question is when is the last time that defense won a championship? What era are we in here? And look, defense is important. All the metrics would say, you know, it would be best to be top 10 in both. But if you had the choice between the number one, offense and the number one defense.

I think most people would say I want the number one offense. Like that’s going to be more difficult. That’s going to be a better pathway to success. A couple of years ago, the Cavs had the number one defense in the entire playoffs and they lasted five games. Like hello? It’s because they had an all-time bad offense.

And I’m not saying that Dallas all of sudden is going to have an all-time bad offense because, know, Kyrie can carry an offensive load and Anthony Davis can carry an offensive load, but, you know, Luka was responsible for so much of their success on the offensive end of the floor. So if you drop to like 15th offensively, middle of the pack, just beyond that, and you have a number one defense, what does that get you? I mean, if you have JB Beckerstaff, it gets you fired.

If you ask the Cavs, it gets you an exit in the second round of the playoffs. It gets you a reevaluation of how you go about your stuff. You bring in a coach that has more modern offensive philosophies because you feel like you’ve got to get your offense to improve. You’ve got to get your offense more dynamic, less predictable, more diverse in terms of the attack.

This idea that defense wins championships, I just don’t know like what era Dallas is trying to live in here or what era it thinks it’s playing in right now. I mean, what’s the question about Oklahoma City right now? They got the number one defense in the NBA. They’re the number one team in the Western Conference. If there’s a question about the Thunder, it’s okay. Are they going to have enough offensive firepower consistently throughout a playoff run?

Chris (37:05.142)

Not just one series, but throughout an entire playoff run outside of Shea Gissel Xander, are they going to have enough? So I just, this idea that defense wins championships, I just don’t know that I agree with that. And I don’t know where that comes from. I think that’s an old school take that doesn’t fit today’s philosophy.

Jimmy Watkins (37:26.422)

What did we learn from the Cavs, the LeBron era Cavs, who didn’t take defense one iota seriously during the regular season at times, and then absolutely ripped through the playoffs every single year. We learned that, you know, defense, important, certainly important. But I mean, defense, I guess defense, even if, let’s say defense wins championships, because it’s fun to say and people have been saying it for long time. Well, Luka Dantjic actually got you to the finals. So I don’t know. I don’t know about that.

Two quick things on their offense.

Chris (37:57.324)

Right, with all of his individual flaws as a defender and all of his, quote unquote, conditioning issues.

Jimmy Watkins (38:00.084)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. His, by the way, conditioning issues. Boy, Luca does a lot on offense, huh? For someone who’s in, for someone who has conditioning issues, pretty impressive the way he handles that offensive load. And to that point, what happens when you take, don’t you have to like reinvent your offense now? Because Luca does so much, like when you have a Luca Doncich or a LeBron James or a James Harden, like your offense is just like.

Chris (38:18.072)

Peace out, sir.

Jimmy Watkins (38:30.6)

set a screen for Luka Doncic and let him be a maestro and then he does it. So now you have to reshuffle that completely and you have Kyrie Irving as your offensive engine and the track record on that, Kyrie as the primary offensive engine. Let’s call it mixed. I love Kyrie. He’s very skilled. He’s an incredible, he’s a fricking artist, honestly. The way he handles the ball, the way he finishes at the rim.

Finds all the perfect angles. He’s an incredible shot maker, scorer, all those things. We’ve seen it. We’ve seen it sputter. Okay? Just saying.

Ethan Sands (39:10.455)

Okay, so to the point that Chris was making about the offense versus defense, mean, like, the other portion of it is just like how much fun the Cavs are having playing at the offensive clip that they are, right? Rather than like feeling stale and stagnant while like having one of the best defenses in the NBA. Like it’s a completely different style of play, it’s a completely different focus. And when you talk about all of these different comparisons, like the Cavs, who are a great example for what Dallas is trying to do, are also an example that

offense can trump defense. we’re also in the age and the era of basketball where great offense beats good defense. And that’s just how the NBA has found itself. And the Cavs again are a perfect example of that. They have the best offense in the NBA, the second best field goal percentage in the league, best three point percentage in the league. They’re the best record in the NBA, the first team to 40 wins after tonight’s game against the Dallas Mavericks, no less. But

I want to get into this next trade, although it doesn’t impact the Cavs as much. I mean, neither of these trades really impacted the Cavs at all because they’re both Western Conference teams. But I wanted to get into just the significance of it. And then the last section, we will talk about the historic stuff that happened in today’s game against the Dallas Memmers. So I know, Chris, stay awake with me. We’re fighting through it. So the full trade.

from today. And as we have talked about throughout the season, the first domino fell and now all the other dominoes will follow. And for all intensive purposes, the biggest domino was the first to fall as well. So the Spurs are getting Deer and Fox and Jordan McLaughlin. The Kings are getting Zach Levin. And I forget how to pronounce his last name. Okay. There you go. Yep. And then

Chris (41:00.056)

Don’t even worry about it, it doesn’t matter.

Jimmy Watkins (41:01.302)

I think it’s C.D. Sissoko. C.D. Sissoko. That’s my shot at it.

Chris (41:05.368)

Don’t worry about it, doesn’t even matter. Nobody listening to this podcast has any clue who he is.

Jimmy Watkins (41:09.504)

Fair. That’s fair.

Ethan Sands (41:11.073)

Three first round picks and three second round picks. That’s all going to the Kings. And then the Bulls are getting Zach Collins, Trey Jones, Kevin Herter, and their own 2025 pick via the San Antonio Spurs. So obviously the biggest thing about this is De’Aaron Fox got what he wanted, even though after getting his head coach fired, he’s getting sent to San Antonio.

And then Zach Levine is going to team up with Demar DeRozan again, this time with the Sacramento Kings. Chris, after you roll your eyes, first initial thoughts on the podcast of this trade.

Chris (41:51.852)

Well, this is why bad teams stay bad. Bottom line, Kings, Bulls, what are you doing? Like, what is the plan here? I mean, this is the definition of hold my beer. Chicago says, Hey, Nico Harrison, Hey, Dallas, like you just got an F in a grade for a trade because you dealt away generational talent. Luka Doncic. I know Zach Levine’s not Luka, but that’s what you got for Zach Levine. You got Kevin Herter.

Zach Collins, Trey Jones, and your own 2025 pick. What are you doing? Like what? That is a laughable return for the Bulls. And it just, they’re going to be riding the treadmill of mediocrity. Have fun with that one, Chicago. And then Sacramento basically saw everything that Chicago attempted to do over the last couple of years that did not work in any capacity.

that did not mean anything other than mediocrity and said, hey, sign us up for that. Yeah, we want the Demar DeRozan-Zac Levine tandem. Like what? Seriously? So I just don’t know what the plan is for Sacramento. And I certainly don’t know what the plan is for Chicago, but for San Antonio, bravo. This is awesome. This is what they needed.

They reached out to the Cavs about Darius Garland. That’s been reported a number of different times because they have been looking and then…

You know, the Cavs obviously told them no, um, because they didn’t like what they were being offered. And then San Antonio turned around and they went out and they brought in Chris Paul. Why? Because they need somebody to set the table for Victor Wimbayama. They need somebody that can be his pick and roll partner or pick and pop partner. They have been looking for a dynamic point guard, um, so that they can run this kind of two man game on the offensive end of the floor and give Victor Wimbayama the kind of running mate that, you

Chris (43:55.836)

he needs in the prime of his career as he tries to ascend into the MVP conversation as he tries to take the San Antonio Spurs back to the playoffs and then back to relevance and back to a championship level. This is the piece.

that they needed when you look at their roster construction. Like I said, it’s why they reached out about Darius Garland. They reached out about other point guards and why they brought in Chris Paul because they recognized what their flaws were. They recognized the weak point on the roster and they addressed it. I can’t say the same thing about the Bulls. I can’t say the same thing about the Kings.

with what they got back in these deals. So to me, this is about, you know, De’Aaron Fox going to San Antonio and what that means for the Spurs and their contention window for Victor Wemba-Nyama’s transformative years in the NBA. And I think it’s a home run because I think De’Aaron Fox is the kind of guy that, you know, changes the way that San Antonio can go about operating on the offensive end for the foreseeable future because Chris Paul was just a bridge to

that. Chris Paul was just a stopgap. They needed somebody consistently for the next five to ten years, however long it’s going to be, that can be that. And Darren Fox, according to reports, wanted to go to San Antonio. So it’s not like you have to worry about him being disgruntled or being unhappy in the situation that he’s in. So, you know, obviously to me

a home run for the Los Angeles Lakers getting Luca and a home run for San Antonio getting De’Aaron Fox. The other teams, don’t know what they’re doing. Bad teams stay bad.

Ethan Sands (45:43.991)

The only thing before, Jimmy, I know I’m going to let you go. The only thing I’m going to say and I’m going to take this directly from Charles Barkley. This is not me saying this. This is Charles Barkley saying this. Why would De’Aaron Fox want to go to San Antonio? There ain’t nothing to do in San Antonio. But go ahead, Jimmy. I apologize.

Chris (45:57.646)

You

Well, there is now. It’s called Play With An Alien.

Jimmy Watkins (46:03.094)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (46:03.857)

Yeah, play it with an alien and play in the playoffs. There you go

Jimmy Watkins (46:07.678)

And then Charles’ words, you could hang out with those big old women down in San Antonio, right? I would say it’s hilarious that the Bulls had to trade back for their own pick. That’s just like peak Chicago Bulls right there. The good news is the pick you just got back has some pretty good value to it. The bad news is you shouldn’t have had to trade anything for it because you once owned it. I don’t even remember what trade that’s from, but I’m sure it is one of…

The late one in a long line of bulls trades, over eager bulls trades, trying to desperately win 42 games exactly, and maybe make the playoffs via the play in tournament. Maybe not. There you go. There you go. Just like that. That’s one of them. That’s one of them. I like the idea of Kevin Herter, who is nicknamed Red Velvet, wearing a red Jersey. That’s a nice thing that I’ll say about the bulls. I like that.

Chris (46:47.532)

You mean Nikola Vukovic for multiple first round picks? Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (47:05.59)

I think the Kings getting some, I don’t know what the protections are on some of these picks, but I mean, a Charlotte pick is nice. 2031 Minnesota pick, that’s interesting to me. The Spurs pick, yeah, I don’t know. I understand why they wouldn’t want many Spurs picks, because they’re giving Wemby the ammo that he needs to make his ascension. But to the Spurs’ credit, not only do they get a running mate,

And when you have a player as transcendent as Wemby, didn’t the Mavericks used to have a guy kind of like that? Didn’t they used have a really young player who was really played beyond his years and incredibly productive, generational talent? Yeah, generational talent, some are saying. Didn’t the Mavericks actually trade first round picks to add a star guard next to that guy? Interesting. I wonder what happened to him.

Chris (47:44.216)

They did, yeah.

Chris (47:48.814)

who ranks off the charts in every statistical metric that measures impact and value. they did.

Jimmy Watkins (48:02.326)

I hope him and the Mavericks are still doing well. When you have a young player you can never, who is clearly a cut above, I think it’s never too early to start pushing chips in because you know in the NBA you’re always on the clock. If you don’t win pretty soon, these guys are, especially when they show you they’re capable. And Wemby, I mean, I think the Spurs, even this year floating around, I think just below 500 right now, way beyond.

my preseason expectations, the second he got there, their reality changed so thoroughly. the other thing, now that they have Fox, who presumably wants to be there, he wants to build an extra star, they still have all of these other picks, right? Like they have, I don’t think they owe any other besides this 27 first, I don’t think they owe any other. So there’s AMO around to be made for another move to be made. That’s just.

I think the Kings to some extent, I’ll give the Kings a little more credit. Like when De’Aaron Fox does, he’s not signed on that extension and has a preferred destination in mind. That’s a tough move to swing. That’s another, think, again, this is a De’Aaron Fox conversation, not a Luka conversation, but that just reminded me of Nico Harrison during his jaw-dropping press conference thanking Rob Polinka for keeping the Luka trade talks.

on the low as if Rob Polinka had any reason to give someone else an inkling that Luka Doncec was available. Nico, thank you Rob Polinka for not allowing other teams to bid and make you have to up your offer. Thank you, Rob. You’re such a nice guy. Nico, please stop talking. We can hear you. We can hear you. The things you say are being broadcast on television. It’s crazy. But once you have your…

once we know, I don’t think they would say he requested a trade, but he made it known that he wasn’t gonna sign a long-term extension there and that he wanted to go to the Spurs. It was like, well, we’re kind of handcuffed here. Given those constraints, I would like to see younger prospects involved in this deal, because the Kings need to accept that it’s time to reset here. But like the Bulls, they’re chasing 42 wins, so.

Jimmy Watkins (50:22.09)

Give me some, Zach Levine, Zach Levine by the way, a very nice basketball player who is aesthetically pleasing to watch, but mostly the author of 20 point per game seasons that will, it’s like a tree falling in the woods. I’m not sure anyone’s ever gonna notice him. Kind of born in a lab to be a Sacramento King. Score 20 points, make no impact on the league. You’re a Sacramento King.

Ethan Sands (50:46.091)

Jimmy, just a…

Chris (50:46.272)

I was thinking, you know, to this spurs point, they kept their entire core out of this deal. They didn’t have to trade Kelden Johnson. They didn’t have to trade Devin Vassell. They didn’t have to trade Stephon Castle, who looks like the potential rookie of the year. So like all of the players that matter to their future, all of the players that they wanted to keep, they didn’t have to give up any of them. And they got De’Aaron Fox. They got a guy that they have coveted for

Jimmy Watkins (50:52.47)

Yes.

Chris (51:15.778)

the last year or the style of player that they have covered, coveted for the last year. I mean, that’s, that’s impressive work by that front office and it helps to be trading with the Kings and the Bulls.

Jimmy Watkins (51:28.852)

The only thing I would say is that a rat…

Ethan Sands (51:31.863)

Hold on, Jimmy, just to give you more context, because you were mentioning you don’t know the protection of the picks for Sacramento. Yeah, the 2025 pick that they’re getting from Charlotte, the first round pick, it’s a top 14 protected pick. So that’s a good pick for them. The 2027 is an unprotected first round pick from San Antonio. And the 2031 pick from Minnesota is an unprotected first round.

Jimmy Watkins (51:39.317)

draft picks. Yeah, let’s hear it.

Jimmy Watkins (51:48.586)

Yeah, that’s found right.

Ethan Sands (52:02.091)

So it’s.

Jimmy Watkins (52:02.272)

So yeah, that Charlotte pick is, we’ll see what it eventually conveys into. There’s no chance that they’re getting that pick. Top 14 protected. We think the Hornets are making the playoffs? No, sorry. We’re not talking about LaMelo ball. We’re not talking about LaMelo ball. We’re not talking about LaMelo ball, but he’s not making playoffs this year. not next year either. My only concern would be the, and this is small potatoes because both players are young and can’t improve.

But Fox and Castle has a backcourt pairing offensively. Neither are shooters. And Fox shoots like 33 % for his career from three. He’s had better seasons than that. It varies. He takes enough. Castle is still very young, still developing in that way, but not known as a shooter. Coming out of the draft and you want to have some spacing around Wembee. Then again, your seven foot four center shoots 35 foot three pointers with regularity. He made one.

one foot with like 16 on the shot clock the other day so I think the spurs are gonna be okay.

Ethan Sands (53:09.463)

Okay, now that we’ve gotten through the first two trade topics, the first biggest trade topics of the trade deadline, and obviously there’s more to be had, and we’ve talked about those a little bit and how there’s just potential for more things needed to be done for these teams to be contenders, Lakers, the Spurs, other teams that are in the mix and match, as Chris said, bad teams have gotten, stay bad, and some teams have even gotten worse over this short period.

But I do want to end the podcast talking about the CAS franchise records that they were able to make throughout today’s game against the Dallas Mavericks, albeit a depleted Dallas Mavericks and emotionally just drained the Dallas Mavericks team that even when looking around the locker room pregame, you could just tell that that team had been hit with a bag of bricks.

There’s been a lot of different things to happen for this team this season when it comes to the Cavs and how successful they have been. But I mean, today was just another day to check it off the list and show just how dominant they can be against any team and how they don’t fall for quote unquote trap games. Because as everybody was thinking about the trade, maybe they could have gotten trapped into that. But the Cavs had the most points in a first quarter in

franchise history 50 points then they also had 91 first half points which is tied for the third most over the first two quarters in NBA history the other the other three being the Suns the Phoenix Suns who scored 107 points on November 10th in 1990 the Golden State Warriors Who scored 92 points on October 29th in 2018 and then the Brooklyn Nets on December 21st

2022, they scored 91. The Cavs also tied their franchise record for three point field goals in a single half with 16 trebles in the first half. They then added another 10 to that in the second half, getting to 26, which is now a franchise record. And their 45 point lead is also their biggest halftime lead ever.

Ethan Sands (55:33.887)

and the 43 points at the end of the game leading by, I believe is tied for fourth best in franchise history. Obviously, this is not the story of the game, but understanding that history was still made, Chris, what can you take away from that? What do you feel, even if it was against a depleted Mavericks team? And I’m gonna keep saying that because I know that’s what you’re gonna go into as it does not matter in the grand scheme of things.

Chris (56:00.59)

Yeah, I’ll say good timing for Sam Merrill to have the kind of breakout performance that he just hasn’t had to this point this season. He shot 26 % from three point range in January. So February is being a little bit better to him with nine of 14 from the field, nine of 13 from three. And I say good timing because…

You know, I’ve had a lot of conversations with a lot of different people over the last couple of days. And one of the things that smart people around the NBA, my sources in the NBA have been talking about is the possibility of the Cavs salary dumping Sam Merrill to get below the luxury tax threshold. Now that move in of itself gets them really, really, really close to that, but not where they probably would want to be. But there’s a lot of conversation around the

that the most obvious path to the Cavs ducking the tax is by dumping Sam Merrill, who just isn’t needed on this team. And I had also been getting a sense that Sam had been getting a feeling from people in the organization that he was going to be on the outs of the rotation.

When Isaac Okoro comes back and when Dean Wade comes back and this team is at full strength once again They’re not there yet. Karis LaVert came back to this game Everything that I’ve heard is that Dean Wade is progressing really really well and he’s already at this point Close to 100 % that doesn’t mean that he’s gonna come back before the all-star break It doesn’t mean that the Cavs are going to rush it or push it. They’re going to continue to take a cautious approach but

He’s progressing really, really well and he’s already close to 100%. And then Isaac Kukoro, once he gets over the hurdle with his shoulder injury, there’s a legitimate question about like, what does that mean for the rest of the rotation? He can’t take Taijiro-Roma, right? Or you can’t cut his minutes significantly. And it just becomes harder to envision who’s going to get their minutes cut.

Chris (58:06.37)

that the Cavs aren’t going to feel the impact of that. You know what I mean? Unless you have the conversation about Sam Merrill, who, yeah, he’s improved his defense this year. And Kenny Atkinson and his teammates, they’ve shouted out Sam for the improvements that he’s made defensively. But he’s here to bring shooting. He’s here to bring continuous movement. He’s here to bring gravity and that spark and that scoring punch off the bench and stuff like that.

And, you know, he just hasn’t been doing that at a consistent level this year. So it just became a lot easier to envision a situation where he was going to be the one most in jeopardy of having his minutes trimmed because he just wasn’t performing the way that the other guys were. So for him to have this kind of game against whoever it was, you know, Dallas had 10 guys, 10 guys, that’s all they dressed. And, you know,

they didn’t have any of their top three leading scorers and they were just playing a bunch of nobodies toward the end of the game because they were just trying to get through the end of the game.

So you do have to put it in that perspective, but he needed a game like this. He hasn’t had a game like this, whether it was against the Washington Wizards who are terrible or the Charlotte Hornets who are terrible or a premier team like the Celtics or today’s version of the Dallas Mavericks. He just needed this kind of game to show that he can be a value. He can be an asset to this team beyond just the contract that he has that would be easy for the Cavs to move on from.

get out of the luxury tax. you know around the NBA guys there are a lot of people that are anticipating that believe that the Cavs desire to get out of the luxury tax is a real thing and it’s something that we’re gonna have to monitor here over the next couple of days. But happy for Sam that he was able to have this kind of performance with all of that stuff kind of swirling over him.

Chris (01:00:15.51)

whether he’s aware of it at a high level or not, it is swirling over him and it’s swirling around the team. And he needed this kind of performance and he had this kind of performance and…

You know, you can’t bottle it and say that he’s going to do it Tuesday against Boston or the next game against Detroit or the next game against the Washington Wizards. But it gives you a sense of, you know, why Kenny has had him in the rotation and why the Cavs, you know, at various points throughout the course of this year have considered him a big time asset and, you know, somebody who helps out the bench or can has the potential to help out this bench.

Ethan Sands (01:00:58.665)

And we know this is just the fourth game this season where Sam Merrill has made four or more three pointers in a game. And obviously this is the most he’s made in his career. had nine. He also made the 26 three pointer. So there’s a lot of things going around Sam and especially with what Chris mentioned with the salary dumping situation and all of those things. But Jimmy, we had talked previously about Evan Mobley and how he didn’t look

to be himself, obviously, coming back from a calf injury and trying to reacclimate and relearn what his body was going to allow him to do. But tonight, let me say this about Sam Mero, I forgot. What I liked most about what Sam was doing tonight, it kind of reminded me of how he played last season, is he wasn’t really hesitating, and this goes into the Evan Mobley thing, he wasn’t hesitating when shooting threes, he was even shooting the tough ones. And then going back to the Evan Mobley conversation, like,

Evan was also not hesitating from three either. And we also saw the dominance that we’ve come to know and the Cavs have appreciated on the interior when it comes to defense. He had four blocks when it comes to rebounding and all those different things. Have you seen when, since he’s been back, he’s kind of had a slow re-reprogression and Kenny Atkinson talked about it the other day, or he talked about it tonight about how two days ago, Evan has

just been working even harder after making the All-Star team and how he wants more. When it comes to a guy that’s just 23 years old and already having the offensive evolution season, how does that bode for this Cavs team and just his desire to help continuing to build it up?

Jimmy Watkins (01:02:45.43)

So Evan, I mean, think we’ve set up before on the pod. think Evan Mobley is the most important player on the Cavs roster toward the goal of winning a championship. Their ceiling is his, which is a good thing because this ceiling is pretty darn high. Young guy who’s over… Oh, another young guy who’s over-performing? A young All-Star? I bet you Nico Harrison thinks that Kobe Allman should trade him. That’s what I think.

That’s what I think. He should call up another GM and trade him. I’m sorry. I’m generally, think I have a higher barrier for trust on guys who aren’t three point shooters who become three point shooters. So while it is very encouraging and has been very encouraging to see Evan earlier in the season when he was, I think he was at about 43 % before he got hurt or something like that on maybe two.

high twos, not quite three attempts per game. That’s a good sign. I just think that the staying power of that is a little bit more fickle until I see more of it. It’s still a very, very, very, very good sign to see him back and make him again, because generally he’s looked a little timid since his comeback and that’s been going away gradually with each passing game. And today you saw that with the three pointers too. Granted, it was against the Dallas Mavericks. The stakes were basically zero. had no, they had no regular compliment of NBA talent.

injury report was extreme so long that the Associated Press reporter Tom Withers, who we love, jokingly asked Jason Kidd from the back of the room, are you going to play tonight? So all that is important context. Important context. That being said, it’s a very good sign to see Evan. And I liked what Kenny said after the game about this being a very mature win for the cat. Like it’s a sign of maturity to see a team that again, doesn’t have a regular compliment of NBA talent. OMAX prosper.

It’s a developmental wing for the MAVs. I think it was a late first round pick. Took a career high 12 shots tonight. That’s because there weren’t very many other people out there who can take shots, right? Okay, you only made three of them, I believe. You just three for 12. But keep firing, OMAX. That’s the name of the game. But that’s important for the Cavs to just like continue their business. There’s a lot going on. The Luka trade is crazy. Everyone’s talking about it. The MAVs have nobody. You know, it’s an easy…

Jimmy Watkins (01:05:04.918)

to call it a walkover game like Chris said, and then come out and be like, oh wait, these guys are in the NBA for a reason. We forgot we’re down by five and a half. That didn’t happen. was over, what was it, 50 to 19 after the first quarter? Yeah. We’re done. We’re done here. It happened so fast. I think it was 27 points in the first six minutes too. was absolute, absolute buzz sawing by the Cavs. That’s great. And the thing, the Sam Merrill thing is interesting for two quick reasons. One, it’s interesting that, okay, it’s good that he did this. He might earn more trust, might.

Chris (01:05:16.002)

Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (01:05:34.326)

make the minutes conversation harder, which is what Kenny always says. He wants his job to be hard with that, right? If you’re making threes. But also what if, you know, it’s trade deadline week, some GMs just sitting on their couch just like, wow, this Sam Merrill guy against the zombie Mavs. Everybody’s watching to see how the Mavs respond to it. Who’s this guy making a lot of threes out there, getting better as a defender, setting franchise records. Maybe it weirdly also makes it easier to move off Sam Merrill. And I know the luxury tax point is tiresome for

for some fans, particularly fans of Cleveland sports franchises, like the Guardians, always claiming they can’t spend any more money is an insult to intelligence in my opinion. But the NBA rules have changed. Ordinarily I’m like, spend it. You’re trying to win a championship. What are you talking about, duck under the luxury tax? Well, it’s a little trickier now because there are real, real punishments as we have discussed for going over the luxury tax now. And there’s a clock to these things. have to pick your contention window.

a lot more carefully now. You have to be very strategic about it. Because the Cavs are so young with their core, I understand why they might want to sneak under it again for another year and push back some of the more punitive measures of the luxury tax. think that’s interesting. Particularly if it only cost you, no disrespect, Sam Rell is a five alarm fire every time he comes off a screen. If it only cost you like the 12th man or 10th or 11th man on your roster, whatever.

Chris (01:06:33.203)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Jimmy Watkins (01:06:59.734)

I think that’s a small price to pay to keep your window open a little longer and your flexibility.

Chris (01:07:04.226)

Jimmy, I have to ask you, since you brought up Nico Harrison and them potentially reaching out to the Cavs, if he would have called, and he called Kobe Altman and Mike Ganzi and he said, we want Evan Mobley, we’ll give you Luka Doncic, you seem to be the biggest Luka Doncic fan in the world that I’ve talked to, you know, probably over the last 72 hours, what do you say and what do you think the Cavs would have said?

Jimmy Watkins (01:07:17.952)

I like this.

Jimmy Watkins (01:07:31.228)

man, that is tough. This is where, when we’re talking, I’m gonna write this this week at some point. I think the calves, so I think I’m gonna eventually get there too. But I’m just gonna talk this out. I think generally the calves are being a little bit too precious with chemistry. And like we can’t afford to try to upgrade our wing because we have this great balance and Kenny’s all about chemistry, me too. But if you see a guy who really does markedly improve.

Chris (01:07:37.386)

Ethan’s shaking his head no already.

Jimmy Watkins (01:07:56.18)

You’re spotted the wing who’s a legit three and D wing, the kind of guy that the cat has been searched for for a long time. think if it, if that means you have to sacrifice, you know, a couple of rotation players in a first round pick, I’m all for it. And we talk about fracturing your foundation and creating another shams mom moment. Man now you’re, you’re really changing the entire fabric of your team. The defensive identity that you’ve built now it’s all like Evan Mobley. know Evan Mobley, Jared Allen, elite defensive pairing.

Luka Donchich and Jared Allen, and you have Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell, there’s a lot more people to attack. Jared Allen is going to be working overtime at the rim, okay? I think I say no. that’s, if Evan’s younger and he’s the, like a foundational piece to why they’re so good. And one-to-one comparison in a vacuum, I think Luka Donchich is better and more valuable than Evan Mobley. And I, but in this specific context.

I think I would say no and I’m positive that the cats would say no.

Ethan Sands (01:09:01.431)

So if, all right, so let’s change it then, because I figured that would be your answer to that question. If the calves were offered the same thing, and this is to both of you, Chris and Jimmy, like, obviously I feel like Jared Allen, if they would have offered, would be the same situation, it have been an automatic yes, right? But say, okay, Chris, again.

Chris (01:09:21.356)

Yeah

Jimmy Watkins (01:09:21.93)

I would say that would never happen, but Nico Harrison said Nico Harrison things today. So I can’t possibly say that nothing is off the table with Nico Harrison.

Ethan Sands (01:09:34.657)

So say the calves were offered lucadantias in pair to give up Darius Garland and Jared Allen. Would you give away them both? Or say this, Donovan Mitchell and Jared Allen. Would you give away both?

Jimmy Watkins (01:09:52.886)

I don’t know about Donovan. Yeah.

Chris (01:09:53.92)

Well, I wouldn’t give away, I wouldn’t give away Donovan and Jarrett and-

getting so much trouble here. Like Darius is an all-star and Darius is on the rise and his trajectory is really, really exciting, but he’s not Luka. So yeah, like I think you would still have enough to overcome that. Donovan, Luka, you still have Evan Mobley in this hypothetical. You could probably go out and…

try and rejigger the roster enough before the trade deadline to add other pieces to it. Yeah, I mean, it’s no disrespect for Darius. Like, I wouldn’t, if I’m the Cavs, I wouldn’t just entertain Darius Garland offers for anybody. This isn’t anybody. This is Luka F-ing Doncic. Like, this is one of the greatest players that has come into the NBA over the last… 10, 15 years?

Like he is on a trajectory to go down as one of the greatest players to ever play the game. So if you’re going to break up the core of your team, if you’re going to even consider or entertain that possibility as painful as it would be, you do it for that kind of guy. There is some slight hesitation though. Some slight hesitation.

You no longer have the wooing point of, we’ll just give you the supermax contract and we’ll overpay or we’ll pay you more than anybody else. Luca is going to be a free agent. He is going to be a free agent soon. And for a team like the Cavs, maybe he would stay, maybe he wouldn’t. They took the gamble once with Donovan, it paid off, but Donovan’s a little bit different.

Chris (01:11:44.118)

Right? So you have that variable mixed in there that you would give away to guys in this hypothetical, two guys under team control, under contract for a guy who, you know, you could give all that up and then he could leave you in a year and a half. that’s a risky proposition to, to play and to consider, especially when you’re the best team in the Eastern conference at this point.

And you’re one of the best teams in the entire NBA at this point. And it’s like, you don’t feel like you have to do something significant to be a legitimate championship contender, right? Like if you’re the Lakers, you felt like you had to do something. You’re the San Antonio Spurs, you felt like you had to do something. You’re the Phoenix Suns, you feel like you have to do something. Golden State, you feel like you have to do something. Miami, you feel like you have to do something. The Cavs don’t have to do anything.

Right, this is a core four that works, that is really formidable, that can be together for the foreseeable future and help the calves be a legitimate title contender for the foreseeable future. So there’s some slight hesitation in this hypothetical, but I think at the end of the day, I come back to.

It’s Luka F. and Don Cich and this is a once in a lifetime opportunity and as much as Darius Garland is great and on an upward trajectory, he’s not Luka.

Jimmy Watkins (01:13:12.63)

free agency part of it makes it so hard. Cause yeah, there you do definitely run the risk of feeling, although there is like, he didn’t seem like the Mavericks went through some rough waters and he certainly they were motivated to make other moves, but Luca never really rocked the boat in that way. They, you know, he didn’t get along with some of the previous front office regime, but maybe again, maybe rightfully so sometimes. Um, I think I would do it for Darius as much as it would hurt because I think you are

Chris (01:13:36.27)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (01:13:43.892)

Championship favorites, if you make that move. And I think the best selling point that you can make to Luca, much like they sort of did with Donovan, they won enough, they showed promise, is Luca’s currency language that he speaks besides Slovenian and English is championships. Like if you show that guy championship readiness, you hang a banner. Obviously winning championships are fun, playing basketball and winning is fun. think that…

I think you could convince him to stay if you win to the level that I think you could if you make that deal. Would be interesting though to watch Luka Doncic, Mr. Dribble, Dribble, Dribble, Dribble, slow play Kenny Atkinson ball. That would be something I’d pay some money to see. And I would love to see, know, Tristan Thompson was saying tonight that Kenny is quick to mother F guys. He’s a real intense kind of coach.

Chris (01:14:25.518)

you

Jimmy Watkins (01:14:38.666)

Would be interested to see how Luka Dantzschitz responds to that type of coaching. Fun thought exercise. Darius, yes, Donovan, no, Evan.

Chris (01:14:45.998)

you

Ethan Sands (01:14:50.007)

Okay. All right guys. We are at around an hour and 15 minutes in we’ve hit on so many different topics Is there anything even a hypotheticals? We’re already an hour and plus in we’re gonna do it We might as well do it now. Is there anything else you want to cover on this podcast episode?

Chris (01:15:11.596)

Nope, I think we covered it all.

Jimmy Watkins (01:15:12.169)

I just hope that none of the words that we spoke into this microphone age as poorly as the words that Nico Harrison spoke into his today. That’s all I’ll say.

Ethan Sands (01:15:22.933)

I just hope you know, Jimmy, how much aggregation is going to go on based on everything that you said. So take that with a grain of salt too. All right. Well, thank you for sticking around with us if you stuck around this long. But with that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember,

Jimmy Watkins (01:15:29.536)

Let’s go.

Ethan Sands (01:15:49.643)

to become a CAS insider and interact with Chris, me, and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. If you want to come and talk hypotheticals, if you want to come and talk about the Luke and Dondra’s trade, the De’Aaron Fox trade, any of these different things, Subtext is the place to do it. And don’t forget, we will be having a Hey Chris episode at some point this week. So make sure you tune in.

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