CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Jimmy Watkins analyze the Cavs’ recent loss, dissecting the areas needing adjustments ahead of the trade deadline and the playoffs.

Takeaways:

• The Cavs’ loss to the Celtics was a learning experience.
• Donovan Mitchell had an outstanding performance despite the loss.
• Evan Mobley had a regression came after showing signs of improvement after returning from his calf injury.
• The Cavs’ defense showed promise against a strong Celtics offense.
• Kenny Atkinson needs to trust his bench players more in high pressure games.
• The Cavs must balance talent acquisition with locker room fit.

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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Ethan Sands

What up, Cal’s Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. And joining me today is columnist, cleveland.com, Jimmy Watkins. And Jimmy, we had another battle of the best in the Eastern Conference. Number one, number two, the Boston Celtics came into Rocking Word and Fieldhouse and came away with a 112.

105 victory and I wrote about this in my preview article Jimmy But I wasn’t putting too much stock into this game coming in It was the third matchup of the season between the two teams between the two juggernauts while offensively obviously we understand that the Cavs are the number one offense in the Eastern Conference and in the NBA actually and the Boston South East our third in the NBA in offensive rating so We know this game got off to a slow start they

combined for eight points, I believe, in the first five minutes of the contest. And then the Boston Celtics kind of pulled away with it. And that kind of dug the Cavs their own hole that they weren’t able to ever come back from. Jimmy, obviously a lot of different things to look at. This was a learning game, I feel, and I can describe it as for the Cavs. But what did you think about coming in? What did you think about coming away? And what do you think is the biggest area?

that the calves can learn from from their loss tonight.

Jimmy Watkins (01:36.194)

So coming in, as I mentioned last night, I was really interested to see the, poor Zingas, how the, how the Cavs attacked and defended poor Zingas. I was, I was more thinking of it from like the true stretch five perspective, like how did they, which, which big man do they put on him? How they defend him. And it actually turned out that they, they, they managed the defensive Simon of Kristaps, poor Zingas pretty well with a lot of, with a lot of different unusual.

defenders against him both because of switching and because of Rough Night Forever and mobile who wasn’t out there as much as he usually is and because of a healthy dose of zone, okay? Well, we’re gonna be a Christoph for Zingas on the defensive end gave the Cavs all sorts of trouble at the rim and Here’s what we’re not going to do on this podcast. We are not going to overreact

to one regular season game, we are not going to paint this kind of sloppy looking version of the Cavs as the team they are going to be going forward. We are not going to say that just because this is the first time we’ve seen them with under Kenny play the fully healthy version of the Celtics and it didn’t go so well, particularly on offense. We’re not going to write them off.

future playoff series. Okay, I’ve said all that. That being said, that being said, I got some playoff flashbacks at times watching this game. mean, just like going through the box work. Donovan Mitchell, freaking outstanding tonight. mean, 31, 10 and six, five turnovers, which was, of course, one of the only stats that he mentioned about himself tonight. That’s just how…

That’s how star’s brains work. But I mean, like, I feel like if you watch the game, you understand what I say when I say as incredible as that stat line is on 24 shots, by the way, 50 % shooting. that doesn’t, that doesn’t tell the story of how excellent Donovan was at setting the tone. just was playing with so much verb. He was, he had to extra burst and passing lanes. He was flying all over the place. He had a little extra pep in his step all night.

Jimmy Watkins (04:03.896)

You could tell and I think I caught him out of the corner of my eye talking to Darius as, as Darius was leaving the locker room after the game. think Donovan said something to the effect of like, I really don’t like losing to those guys. All right. So this game meant something to the caps, but look around Donovan. Okay. Jared Allen hats off. Jared Allen was freaking awesome tonight. 17 and 18, six offensive rebounds, patrolling the patrolling the paint while

While dealing with a size deficit and making had a couple of really really nice passing moments as well. I thought he acquitted himself very well. Sam Merrill tip your cap made some made three threes. That’s 12 made threes for Sam Merrill in the last two games. His previous five he made 10.

Where else did it come from, man? I mean, Darius had a nice bounce back second half. I thought he was really playing with the right verve and picking his spots, picking the right matchups to attack in the second half. But man, he started slow. Maybe that had something to do with the fact that he got hit in the face again early in this game. I don’t know, but those moments, like one bad half will kill you against Celtics. That’s how good they are. George Nyang, one for three, made a couple free throws, six points minus 12.

I mean, the fouls, five fouls, the Celtics were going after him as often as they possibly could. Evan Mobley, your third All-Star, I think we’ll probably have a separate conversation about Evan Mobley, but here’s just to give you an idea. This is the fewest minutes that Evan Mobley has played in a game that was decided by single digits other than the Miami Heat game on December 8th, during which he sprained his ankle.

So Kenny Atkinson legitimately went away from Evan Mobley at times in this game. Kenny said after the game that, well, it was more about, we wanted to get more spacing on the floor. I think, I mean, look, Jared Allen also great. Let’s tip our cap again. Jared Allen was great tonight, but it’s unavoidable. Like normally when the calves go one big, it’s Evan Mobley. Okay. So that tells you a little something. just, I just got.

Jimmy Watkins (06:26.166)

A familiar feeling of Donovan Mitchell. Man, this guy is playing his heart out right now, and he needs a little bit more help.

Ethan Sands (06:36.024)

And I don’t think anybody’s going to disagree with you on that one, Jimmy. But the fact is that he did have more help than he had last season, right? Darius Garland still was in 20 points. Jared Allen did put up the points that he needed, but it was the shots that they missed. Like this has been one of the most efficient teams that came in second in field goal percentage, best three point percentage shooting team in the league. tonight,

They matched their lowest field goal percentage of the season and they had their third worst three point pursuit percent shooting night of the year. And when we talk about this, Jimmy, we also understand that the Cavs have won one game this entire year when they have shot below 30 % from the field. And obviously we understand that Donovan Mitchell against Boston Celtics, as you mentioned, they don’t like losing to them. So he has a little bit extra person that also started in the first quarter where he

dunked on Christoph Prozenges head put a little head top on them and I know like there’s that’s in the very beginning of the game and it doesn’t have a whole lot to do with the how the game panned out but that was the energy boost that the Cavs needed I mean it was I believe it was either 6-6 or 4-4 or whatever it was at the time and that got them kind of rolling again it got them back on track even if

The Celtics went on their run. It was the energy portion of it. It woke up rocket mortgage fieldhouse and Obviously Donovan is preached throughout this entire season that there have been different kinds of games where he’s been able to get off the ball He’s been able to stay on the ball make his pick his spots and that’s been the best Attribute of Donovan Mitchell this season is how he’s been able to do that and tonight I feel like everybody knew coming in that Donovan just tears up the the Boston Celtics, but

You mentioned that the Boston Celtics were fully healthy, the Cavs, although without two rotation pieces, they were down two men. One of them being as Jared Allen called him after the game, the Celtics killer in Dean Wade. And Dean Wade is a guy that a lot of the fan base doesn’t particularly have very much interest in, especially when we talk about the trade deadline coming up, and we’ll probably end the podcast with that.

Jimmy Watkins (08:57.924)

I would say appreciation. They do not appreciate Dean Wade properly.

Ethan Sands (09:02.522)

That’s the better wording. That’s where I was going with that. Perfect, Jimmy. The Cows are now 30 and 5 when Dean Wade plays. They’re 10 and 5 when he does not. So if that doesn’t show you the discrepancy, we know his box score stats. If you’re a box score watcher, like that does not depict exactly what Dean Wade does for this team. The defensive numbers speak to it. The overall numbers when he’s off the floor also speak to it. So Jimmy.

The next portion of this is kind of something that you alluded to with Evan Mobley.

Jimmy Watkins (09:35.886)

Can I, can I say something real quick though? I want to, if you want to say that, yes, the Cavs were not at full strength, I’ll hear that. We will, the court will allow that evidence. I agree. Isaac Kroh and Dean Wade are two instrumental pieces. When you’re trying to defend the Boston Celtics who have a bunch of big ball handlers, particularly the two biggest, Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum, who kind of had some awkward matchups tonight, right? Like Max Struce.

Maxxer’s guarded a little bit, everybody tonight, he was on Tatum. He was on Brown. He got two quick fouls trying to, trying to guard Brown. Jaylen Brown started really hot, had the first 12 points for the Celtics. Keris Laverde guarded Jaylen Brown for a little bit. Evan Moley was guarding Jason Tatum. I think we will. I think that’s a legitimate chess piece that they can deploy down the, down the road, but the other hand, or they’re defensively, I understand, but that’s, that’s not.

why the Cavs lost this game, right? Like they were still able to bring drag the Celtics down in the mud with them, even though they were having a tough, tough shooting night. They just couldn’t score enough. These are the 40 point quarter Cavs, the 50 point quarter Cavs. If you’re the Dallas Mavericks, their best quarter was 31 points tonight. They scored how many points in the first quarter? 15? 15, 15 points in the first quarter. As in Coral Dean Wade.

Underappreciated players, incredible defenders, not your offensive accentuators, right? Like Dean Wade, a floor spacer, serviceable floor spacer, but he’s going to stand in the corner. And the Celtics have a way of making you play this brutish basketball that really just, it’s what you got, right? On offense, they are predatory the way they hunt switches. They’ll find you. If there’s a weak point on the court, George Niang.

We’ll find you and we’re going to make you move your feet. George Yang was tap dancing out there a lot tonight. Okay. He was trying, but he’s just, there are limitations there on defense. did with Sam Merrill too, and he’s an underrated defender, but he’s undersized against a lot of these Celtics ball handlers, right?

Jimmy Watkins (11:50.86)

on defense Celtics switch a lot because they have the personnel to do it. And that that limits what you can do with your with your pretty flowy cutting passing offense. Like that’s and then to a certain extent that’s playoff basketball. Again, we’re not saying we’re not saying that this game, you know, should should drain your hope against a

against the Celtics and potential playoff series down the road. A lot of time between here and now, a lot of growth to be had between here and now. Healthier, you can get healthier between here and now. Who knows? Chris might be on the phones right now figuring out a trade that the Cavs are going to make. Who knows? But it’s a lot of mono-y mono and the Celtics have better, bigger, stronger monos.

Ethan Sands (12:38.86)

And Jimmy, think you make a good point when you talk about the defensive prowess of the Cavs showed tonight, obviously against the team that is also known for putting up big numbers and the Cavs have been, have gotten some backlash on having a defensive slippage throughout the season. So I think it was a good point that the Cavs were able to still hold the Boston Celtics to 112 points, right? The other thing that I want to say on that topic is I think on the other side of the coin is

you have to take advantage when you’re able to have this kind of defensive showing against a team like the Boston Celtics where Jason Tatum, seven of 23, 30.4 % from the field. Kristaps Przingis, seven of 20, 35 % from the floor. Drew Holliday, one of six, 16.7%. Peyton Pritchard, three of seven, 42.9 % from the field. These are guys that are like,

used to shooting above their heads. Maybe Jason Tatum, not as much because he’s going to get his points how he gets his points. But the Cavs have to be able to take advantage of situations against not only the bad teams, but also the good teams. And I’m going to say this in the same sentence in the same light, that the Cavs are 17 and eight versus teams over 500. That’s the second best in the NBA. So I think there’s not obviously we’ve talked with Kenny Atkinson about the narrative that they can’t.

play as well against these lengthy, these better teams, these elite level teams, but they have, they have showcased that they can defeat these teams that have had success throughout the year. New York, Philadelphia, well not Philadelphia this season, but you know what, you know the point I’m trying to get to is they are not.

Jimmy Watkins (14:24.996)

Okay, but there’s a difference between teams over 500 and the best team the teams that you’re gonna have to go through Okay, Kenny was talking about this before the game Boston they’re one and two against now. Okay, see they split with and the loss was ugly and alarming. Okay The Houston Rockets Houston is and I would characterize Houston as a step below those other two teams though, they are stacking regular season wins they beat the Cavs twice and

Ethan Sands (14:42.04)

Houston, yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (14:54.498)

Those three teams in particular have next level size, positional size, make these, some of these smaller Cavs guards work harder and on the other end can punish mismashes in a way that, that’s, again, that’s playoff basketball. Like I’m trying to think of a random above 500 team.

the cabs would would smack around. Let’s let’s pick a name out of a hat. The Indiana Pacers have have some size. Pick your pick your let’s say can you help me Ethan? Why am I not thinking of a random team right now?

Ethan Sands (15:38.842)

I’m pulling up the standings right now. I’m gonna go through them for you. I mean, when you talk about the West, like LA, I feel like the Lakers are a team that they could, they have size with the Cavs have had success against them this season. The Knicks are a team that they’ve had success against this season. I don’t think they smacked them around, but they had success against them. The Milwaukee Bucks, both of those games, they won against the Bucks, even though they were close, right?

Jimmy Watkins (15:40.846)

Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (15:55.652)

That’s fair.

Ethan Sands (16:05.85)

Orlando, obviously we understand Orlando’s situation with injury. So I definitely think it’s a difficult conversation in the context of what you’re talking about, Jimmy, but I know what you’re saying.

Jimmy Watkins (16:19.108)

Yeah, just like they are. There are nice wins and then there are statement games in the regular season. Again, we’re not investing too much into this one regular season game. This was a statement game. This is a TNT game where everyone was watching. And I think a lot of, think the take one of the takeaways is Cavs offense as awesome as it has been for most of the season when the Celtics are locked in and healthy.

More work to be done. More work to be done.

Ethan Sands (16:52.602)

100%. And the next portion that you alluded to earlier, Jimmy, is the Evan Mobley situation and how he’s continuing and still coming back from that calf strain. And Kenny Atkinson mentioned it and kind of dodged the question that Chris asked him about his health, saying that everybody during this time is going through something. There’s two sides again to this coin. I feel like Jimmy from the other podcast where there’s two sides to everything, right?

Evan Mobley last year had his breakout game against the Boston Celtics in game five. And that was when the entire world was like, oh, this guy could be good. Could be something that we have to keep an eye on because of his offensive game. That didn’t happen tonight. He was bad offensively tonight, right? Evan Mobley was three of 14 from the field. He was O of four from deep. was a minus seven in the box score. He had just seven points.

Overall and then he wasn’t doing a whole lot in the rebounding category either. He had five rebounds three on the offensive end but I definitely think when it comes to Evan Mobley and Jared Allen and Evan Mobley and and Donovan Mitchell said it after the game This is just one game and they have both Jared Allen and Donovan Mitchell have both had stinkers Obviously Donovan Mitchell referenced the game against the Oklahoma City Thunder and we know that matchups can play a factor in these kinds of things Donovan Lou Dort

Christoph Porzingis, Evan Mobley. But obviously we also have to take into account that the Boston Celtics did not have Christoph Porzingis last year in the playoffs when they played. So I definitely think that’s something to monitor going forward, especially if this is a matchup that we see in the playoffs and how Evan Mobley adapts to being guarded by somebody like Christoph Porzingis, who can be out on the perimeter with him as well.

Jimmy Watkins (18:47.396)

Once again, what we’re not going to do is erase 49 games worth of progress. For the most part, 49 games worth of incredible progress from Evan Mobley. He’s been so good, well-deserved all-star. The ceiling of this team has been reimagined as a result, okay? They’ve done a great job of empowering him, and he has made the most of that power.

at the same time.

Jimmy Watkins (19:22.904)

They need more than they need more than this out of him. So hang with this team. Okay. The Celtics did not play that well offensively tonight and the Cavs still didn’t have enough firepower to keep up with them. In a playoff series, you’re not counting on, you’re not counting on your George and Yang, Sam Merrill’s to keep you in it. You’re counting on your Evan Mobley’s, your Darius Garland, your Donovan Mitchell’s. Okay. Maybe you’re Jared Allen. I don’t know. Cavs have this, this two big formula.

didn’t look so hot on offense against the Celtics team. And yet the Celtics are now get are now experimenting with the two big formula, which means that the Cavs might have to match. That’s that’s tough. That’s really tough, man. I was pretty. Intrigued again, all the all the caveats, calf injury has been six games, but calf injury. OK, I’ll hear you. I know calf and calf injuries linger. It’s you know, the calves are they did.

beat the mess out of the Mavericks on Sunday, which offered all the starters a healthy rest. And now it’s Tuesday, right? So I would think that everyone’s pretty fresh right now. But again, calf injuries linger. I’ll hear that out at the same time. Six injured, six games since. And it felt like we were starting to build upward momentum here, right? Like against the Mavericks, we saw the three point shot make a return. I’ve made the comment on this podcast before that when Evan first came back, he looked a little timid around the rim.

I thought that was I thought we were seeing fewer and fewer occurrences of that each game as he went on. And then tonight felt like a big fat regression. I was intrigued to hear all basically every person we talked to tonight, which after a loss is fewer people. It’s Kenny Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley. Basically, all of them chose the. Sorry, who did I say?

Ethan Sands (21:18.628)

Jared Allen. Jared Allen. Evan Moplin.

Jimmy Watkins (21:22.136)

Who did I say? Evan Mobley? Sorry, Jared Allen. They all asked questions about Evan Mobley because he didn’t have a great game, And I was interesting to see them, see none of them really take the tough love approach and all of them take the build him up approach. I’m not saying that’s the right or wrong approach. I’m just saying that like Kenny is saying, we need to find better ways to get Evan the ball and we’re not worried about this one game. We’ll write it off.

Well, it is one game against the one team that you are going are measuring yourself against in the Eastern Conference. And it is the first time this season under this iteration of your team that they’ve been whole, particularly in the front court, particularly with Christophs Porzingis, the guy that Evan Mulvey is going to be. If it all goes according to plan, Evan Mulvey is going to be seeing a lot of Christophs Porzingis at the rim on both ends of the court in late May. Okay. Donovan Mitchell.

was again, tell him, worry about it. All right, everyone has bad games. He made some joke about, oh yeah, people get mad at you because if you have 50 points and you miss a free throw, you mess up their parlay, ha ha ha ha ha. Okay, but we’re not really like, I thought that was really interesting. Jared Allen kind of same idea. They all took the build him up approach. And I’m wondering, and this is maybe a little bit too big brain here, so stop me if I get there.

But I just think, wonder like, so we know Evan Mobley to be more of a reserved fella, right? When he speaks to us, he’s a quiet talker. He’s becoming more demonstrative on the court, but he mostly lets his game do the talking. He’s still very young, of course, 23 years old. I think that’s part of the reason why they’re taking this approach, by the way. They don’t want to, they see it’s all the progress that has been made.

And they don’t want to beat up on him too much because they want him to keep, to keep being aggressive and keep exploring what he can do on the court. But I think that people, the way people.

Jimmy Watkins (23:32.674)

manage their teammates and in Kenny’s case, their players tells you a lot about that player. So I think that that them saying Kenny kind of batting away on whatever one bad game. Okay. It’s kind of an important bad game before if we’re projecting for the future, but okay. Donovan Mitchell, same thing. Jared Allen, same thing. Don’t worry about it. Just next next. We’ll get them. We’ll get them next time. I think that tells me that they all still think that they’re

that Evan needs there, his confidence built up a little bit. His rhythm got thrown off from the calf injury. He missed four games. He’s been working it back up today at a bad game. So they’re trying to keep him pushing forward. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I’m not saying that’s the wrong way to do it. I’m just saying it’s interesting that they’ve chosen that way to do it because eventually his conversations are going to get much more direct and the

The criticism is going to be harsher if Evan Mobley does something like this in the playoffs against the Celtics at the end of the day, as we’ve said a thousand times in this podcast, the Cavs championship window is open as wide as Evan Mobley can lift it. And tonight he didn’t lift it very high. It’s the regular season. So it doesn’t matter, but

And maybe that’s the right response after a regular season game, right? Just say, let it roll off your back. We’ll get them next time and try to see what you can do better next time you see the Celtics. just, I just wanted to highlight that because I thought it was interesting.

Ethan Sands (25:07.566)

Yeah, and I think you’re absolutely correct. But I think we got to start having these hard conversations. And Jimmy, like we’ve been very praise heavy on this podcast and rightfully so they’re 40 and 10, right? But like there are some difficult conversations that need to be had. And a couple of those come with Kenny Atkinson and some of the decisions that he’s made over stretches against tougher teams and situations where he might be able to go to somewhere else. And we’ve talked about how he’s just

Believe in the depth, like keep coming back to the depth. And he has preached that. Celebrate it. There you go.

Jimmy Watkins (25:43.876)

Celebrate it, celebrate it, Ethan. Pop bottles, pop bottles for the deaf.

Ethan Sands (25:50.166)

Celebrate the depth right but when you keep talking about this and you keep saying we’re gonna do this in the playoffs We’re gonna use our bench. We’re gonna use our rotation. We’re gonna play 10 11 12 deep in the playoffs Show me like if you’re gonna tell me that if George Nia who we understand that this is the reason in Kenny Atkinson goes with Every time I asked this question to him about why George Nia continues to stay in the game. It’s because of spacing it’s cuz

He is a connector. It’s because he is in the right places and at the right time and can make decisions and all the, and he’s a leader and he’s a great locker room guy and all of these things. The reality of it, if he’s an offensive weapon, if he’s supposed to be spacing floors, he’s supposed to be shooting and making threes. And you tell me that he takes three shots in the entire game. He took the least amount of shots of any player that entered in the game today. And he also only had.

Let me look at this. I’m, I’m saying this correctly to rebounds, right? You’re the power forward. You’re subbing in for Evan Mobley off the bench. You’re the power forward trying to take up space, trying to guard Christoph Porzingis. And you have to rebounce.

Jimmy Watkins (27:04.034)

And by the way, he’s playing in really small lineups. We talked about this after the game even. He’s playing with three guard lineups in many cases. We need the size to be grabbing rebounds in those lineups.

Ethan Sands (27:14.554)

Correct. you’re talking about, like, and that goes into the, the lineups, right? Like we talked about this, Jimmy, there was a lineup with Sam Merrill, Donovan Mitchell, or Sam Merrill, Darius Garland, Max Struus, and Ty Jerome. And you can switch in Max Struus with George Niang. There was more times on that where George Niang was out there. You can switch in Donovan and Darius if you want to. But the reality of the situation is,

Jimmy Watkins (27:29.816)

Yep. Tide your own. Tide your own.

Ethan Sands (27:44.502)

if George Yang is not bringing what he is supposed to on both ends of the floor, especially because we understand that he is a liability on a defensive end and he had five fouls. Like I got to the point where I was like, all right, you’re going to have to play Jaylen Tyson. You’re going to have to put him in the game. And then he just, and then Kenny Atkinson just kept switching out Max Drews and George Yang with Max Drews playing the four. A lot of our, a lot of our listeners,

complain about Max playing the three. So my question to Kenny Atkinson after the game was trying to get an answer about what continues to let him play George Niang in these situations when he’s playing like this today. Other games, George Niang has been a savior of this team. In this particular game against this particular opponent, why not give Jalen Tyson any chance, any opportunity to show himself?

In a game against a team that you could see further down the line. His answer was blatantly We thought about it Okay, what does that mean? Like we thought about it. Okay, do it like I like this is this is going back to what he has told us Jimmy on countless occasions the depth celebrated the depth we’re going to use 10 11 12 guys because we have them and then

going into what Jalen Tyson has been used for this season. Defense against bigger opponents, defense against guarding the best player on the opposing team. I would have liked to see minutes of him guarding Jalen Brown or Jason Tatum, right? And then also, and even if you want to keep George Niang on the floor for those minutes, like have him play the three, have him play the four and have George Niang play the three, whatever. But the rebounding aspect is something that Jalen Tyson has.

Translated from college to the nba and that’s the biggest portion of it They need those rebounds and obviously we’re not talking about the rebound discrepancy because it wasn’t that big the cats lost the rebounding battle 53 to 51 the offensive boards battle 15 to 14, but like It was it felt much different than it looked then then the stats proclaim, right? So I just think there’s these

Ethan Sands (30:02.554)

tougher conversations when you’re saying, want to go with these guys that have been there longer. We want to be, go with these guys that have been in these situations. And obviously that’s a portion of the reason that the Cavs went and got George Yang in the first place. But if you’re going to want to keep Jaylen Tyson, you have to show the Cavs and the organization why he’s useful in these situations.

Jimmy Watkins (30:26.626)

Yeah, we’ve seen what George Nying looks like in these, in those big games that he’s played in, right? Since he’s been here, he was not good. He fell out of the rotation last year during the postseason to your point about what Kenny says about celebrating depth and what he does. There’s, there’s a pretty distinct difference, right? Actions over where we always say that. It’s very easy when you’re motoring through. The calves are at this point, I think we can, we can say they’re there at least in the regular season. are.

a cut above 70 % of the league, 80 % of the league. We can keep going higher. Wherever you want my hand to stop, they can beat a lot of teams on talent. And it’s very easy in those moments, the starters get you a 10 point lead early, maybe even more, to celebrate your depth. It’s much easier to reach deeper into the bench. And again, injuries, it should be noted, this could easily be Dean Wade Isaac.

Coral minutes if those guys were there too. But given the availability that you have, it’s much, it’s yeah, go get them, Rook. Let’s see what Jalen Tyson can do. Give them an opportunity. We love the way you’ve been playing. We love the way you’ve been playing on defense. He’s doing everything we ask him to do. That’s what they say, right? But then it comes time to actually do that on a big stage, regular season, but it’s a national TV game. And Kenny doesn’t trust him. He doesn’t trust him.

Easy to say, I’m going to play 10, 11 guys in the playoffs. I’m going to have to, everyone’s playing so well, they’ve earned it. Well, now we were talking last night about whether the Cavs might trade Sam Merrill to get under the tax. Okay. That’s interesting too. He was great tonight, by the way. I thought Sam Merrill did his job. He was key part of the comeback, making some timely threes.

Ethan Sands (32:15.418)

And I’m gonna point this out to me and I’m gonna let you continue but like Jason Tatum had the little boy Sam Merrill like he literally put his hand down to the floor after backing up Sam Merrill and said he’s too little this coming after Jason Tatum and missed four or five shots in a row so I think that’s like when we talk and this is not to get into a Celtic conversation but like that is the Everybody calling Jason Tatum soft

That was the softest thing I had seen him do against the Cavs in my tenure of covering the team. Because you’re going to tell me that you six foot eight Jason Tatum shouldn’t bully Sam Merrill, six foot four, who had been bodying you up for the last couple of possessions? All right. Sorry, Jimmy. Go ahead.

Jimmy Watkins (33:01.672)

Yeah, that’s not a math. That’s not like a flex. That’s just math. Sam Merrill is literally too small. Literally too small to guard you. But okay, get it off, I guess. But it’s just, this is I was talking about. Remember during the regular season when I was kind of making fun of Kumbaya Kenny and saying like, it’s everybody’s team and it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter who gets the credit and it doesn’t, it’s easy to say that.

It’s easy to say that before you start playing. It’s much easier to say it when you start playing and you start winning. But we’re talking about celebrating death. Against the Celtics, we didn’t celebrate as much. There wasn’t as much to celebrate, but we didn’t dip into the bench as much. didn’t, we certainly were not empowering Evan Mobley tonight. They tried and he was trying, you know, as he was trying his little pickup moves, the ball, the dribble pickup.

on his way to the rim on one of those wild drives that he had and he, it didn’t work out for him. So they stopped empowering him. Like again, as I said at the top, literally the fewest amount of minutes he’s played in a single digit, in a single digit finish all year. Kenny, I’ve been saying this for a while. Kenny, when Kenny talks about George Yang being the best defensive player in a game, or he’s really, he thinks Darius Garland, he’s just

praising Darius Garland. It’s not, it’s not because these dudes are going to make it all defense team. It’s because Kenny is reward. He wants to give them more incentive to keep trying. Okay. They’re doing the best they can, but that’s not, that doesn’t mean that they’ve, they’ve solved these issues. They, there’s, there’s what you say and there’s what you do. And Kenny’s got caught a little bit in the crosshairs. I now understand.

Maybe Jalen Tyson isn’t ready to play against the Boston Celtics on TNT in this kind of spotlight. But we don’t know. Basically that decision tells me one of two things. One, Kenny really, really, really doesn’t want to cut into George Niang’s confidence. He still thinks he’s going to need George Niang in the playoffs and he needs George Niang to rediscover what he’s had for a lot of the year. George Niang’s having a really good year in the regular season.

Jimmy Watkins (35:26.254)

So he wants to keep feeding that confidence because it’s regular season game. The result is immaterial, particularly when you’re 40 and nine going into it. Or Kenny’s really confident that Jalen Tyson won’t be able to help them in the playoffs. And so what’s the point? I think that could have been a valuable learning experience for Jalen Tyson. Maybe he would have looked overwhelmed. You don’t have to play him very long. That’s just, I think you raise a fair point there, Ethan.

Ethan Sands (35:51.222)

And Jimmy, that’s the biggest point. We don’t know unless you show it to us. Kenny is such an analytically based person. Your sample size for Jalen Tyson is, OK, this is what he looks like when we surround him with the veterans, when we have him as a starter, all these great things. This is what he looks like when he’s playing in the secondary unit.

The secondary unit usually only comes in when they’re playing against bad teams that they’ve already wiped the floor with, right? So you don’t have the sample size that you need to have a regular argument of whether or not you can utilize Jalen Tyson in those situations, because you simply don’t know. There’s no data to back it up. But, and Jimmy, you mentioned two points that I wanted to cover, talking about how you don’t know if Jalen Tyson

would have been helpful in the playoffs, right? If Kenny Atkinson doesn’t think that they’re going to be able to use Jalen Tyson. The other portion is if Jalen Tyson’s even going to be here in a couple of days, right? Like if the conversation then turns to the trade deadline and George Nyang made this joke at Max Streus’ event while they were setting up to take pictures, he was like, okay, only players are allowed to be over here until after Thursday at 3.30 PM. I was like,

do. I like jokingly so, right? But in its seriousness, like that is how kind of divvied up it is right now between everybody noticing what just happened with Luca Doncic, with Darren Fox, with Anthony Davis and everybody being, not everybody, almost everybody in the NBA, not having something that can like continuously tie them to our organization. But

Like, they don’t know what’s going to happen in a couple of days. Nobody really knows, other than the people in the organization at the top of the front office. And Kenny Atkinson alluded to it earlier. And I believe that’s also a portion of the reason that Chris is not here, because he’s chasing a story. It is because, like, they’re… Kenny Atkinson said that he has to listen to what this team needs from Kobe Altman to figure out how they can get better. To me, Jimmy?

Ethan Sands (38:14.914)

And obviously we’ve seen the stuff on Twitter and X or whatever you want to call it, that there’s like these rumors that there’s a potential trade happening with these different players and all these different things. But the reality of the situation is. Kenny Atkinson and this team, and when you ask around the locker room, Jared Allen said it and then and then Donovan Mitchell said it, Jared Allen was like, if you do something to these these players.

that are in this locker room, particularly players that have a culture set in this locker room, George Yang being one of those players, you’re going to disrupt the chemistry that they have, the camaraderie that is in that locker room. And then Donovan Mitchell didn’t want to answer the question. He said, we’re fine. We’re fine. We’re good. And like, that’s how the interview ended, right? So the tough questions, the tough conversations that we talk about, Jimmy, they’re coming.

And they’re coming sooner rather than later. And that’s because of things that are going up around front office. And we talked about this a couple of days ago, or even a week ago, when Kenny Atkinson was like, I’m not involved in these talks yet. I’m not involved until it starts getting serious. And I don’t know if, I mean, our job is to read body language and mannerisms. But when that question was asked yesterday or two days ago, when Joe Varden of The Athletic straight on asked him, are you going to make a move? He said,

We’re going to have to wait and see basically. then today, Kenny actually kind of put his head down because he didn’t want to answer the question. So Jimmy, I just want to get your thoughts to wrap up the podcast on what we’ve seen, what we’ve heard and what’s going on around the league, whether it’s Deandre Hunter, Cam Johnson, all these different scenarios. I want to get your thoughts to wrap up the episode.

Jimmy Watkins (40:05.636)

So I would, I would say this, and we’ll probably talk about this a little bit tomorrow too. I think chemistry is really important. I think the Cavs have a really good thing going and I understand the hesitancy to mess with a good thing. Right. I think that’s, I think that’s an important part of Kobe Altman’s job is to weigh the talent acquisition versus the locker room fit, with, whoever he might be entertaining.

That being said, the worst reason in my opinion to pass on a talent upgrade who could legitimately, you think legitimately boost your chances of winning a championship is because the players will be sad to see somebody go.

Can I say both of those things? Can both of those things be true? I think so. This is big. This is a business is big boy basketball. This is this is you’ve earned. You’ve earned the right to make hard decisions, but now you got to make some. think I think it’s. I think it’s kind of. I don’t I don’t think I liked Donovan asked answered that question a little bit differently at shoot around today. He actually answered it. I think.

Still, was a little feeling the little bit of the emotions from that game when he said, we’re good, we’re good, we’re good. When, he was asked about, about chemistry and the trade deadline and all that stuff.

But I just don’t, hope that that’s not, I hope that again, I hope the calves are not operating out of fear here. I think a trade, if you believe in a player that can make your team better, do it and trust that the culture, if the culture is so strong, then it should be able to lose a piece or two and still correct itself. Okay. And if you’re trading for a player, well, culture fit should be part of the evaluation, right? You shouldn’t be going after a person who doesn’t fit your culture.

Jimmy Watkins (42:12.118)

So I think that’s just because you lose somebody doesn’t mean your culture has to crumble or even get worse. think the Cavs are winning, winning mostly Cures All. And even if they’re, even if they do make a semi-significant move and they would be sad to see somebody go, they would survive.

Ethan Sands (42:34.36)

Right. And that’s what Kenny Atkinson said. He said, it’s got to be a good fit, right? It’s got to be a fit, not only for the team and how they’re going to impact winning basketball games, but it’s got to be a good fit for this team in the locker room. And that’s, that’s why I go to these events for like the players in the community. Cause you get to know them on more of a personal level rather than just on the court. Cause I know we both,

Understand Max Deuce is a hard-core winner. He will do whatever it takes. He’s a hard-ass. He’ll argue with referees. We saw it tonight. Like he will throw people around if he asked you. He’ll throw an elbow with Kristoff Przingius, right? But he is, when he talks about family, when he talks about this group, he sounded like the most soft-hearted person that I’ve ever talked to on this team. And I was like, is this Max Deuce? Like, who are we talking to right now?

completely different person. And he talked about how this group has become family to him. And I agree with what you’re saying, Jimmy. Like, I don’t think the Cavs can operate in a sense of fear, but I definitely think, like, it’ll be, and we’ve seen it with these relationships around the league with Trae. It’s like Kyrie Irving talking about Luka Dantius’ Trae for the first time today and saying, like, I lost a brother. I miss my Armando.

Like I have to get, I had to process that. And LeBron James and Anthony Davis, a similar situation. So obviously it’s gonna be.

Jimmy Watkins (44:11.94)

It might feel like a family. It might. I’m sorry. It might feel like a family. It’s still a basketball team that’s trying to win a championship. This is a business. That’s all I wanted to say.

Ethan Sands (44:22.714)

I agree. I agree wholeheartedly, Jimmy, wholeheartedly. So the trade deadline is coming up in a couple of days. I got to head over to Detroit tomorrow to watch them play the Pistons. We talked about yesterday how the Pistons have been linked to a lot of different decisions that the teams around the NBA have made this year. We’ll have to see if the Cavs are next. But with that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk.

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